Curse

IMMORTAlMITCH · May 27, 2008, 04:34 PM // 16:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

I agree that it might be difficult to spec rawr,but I dont think we have seen anyone apart from vZ enjoy any real success or ambition to do so.

I don't think vZ even specifically specced rawr, the only thing I guess they changed about their build was the runner because they knew rawr wasn't going to split on them anyway.

Quote:

In some respects there is some value to being rawr's counterpart, and maybe StS enjoy that aspect of competitiveness, being the underdog that could beat rawr at its own game, who knows maybe one day they will win.

It's mainly because whenever they tried running builds without a lot of defense they didn't do nearly as well (see april monthly for example).

Quote:

Just because its not easy, it doesnt mean its impossible, and you cant surely claim that it is impossible if you dont try a multitude of different approaches to the problem... Id like to see some amibition in match ups vs rawr for a change.

The only 'top' guild that plays against Rawr frequently is dR, all the euro guilds play them once, or at most twice a month if at all.

We ([Euro]) specced rawr in the april monthly swiss rounds and won quite easily, but they weren't running their normal build and even then we had to guess if it would work.

If more euro guilds actually got to play Rawr, maybe they'd try building against them a bit more, the closest they come to playing rawr is playing StS and StS isn't nearly as good at playing (for) VoD as Rawr.

Quote:

Im not saying that VoD is perfect, I am just trying to offer an alternative perspective on why rawr seems to dominate so much. Some say its the fact that their playstyle exploits a broken game mechanic, I am just saying, how about someone try to exploit rawr's predictable playstyle? Try?

I cant see anyone really trying, I just see people playing safe builds vs rawr all the time...

Did you even read my previous post?

Quote:

And I really dont consider a 3 warrior build with crip shot and water ele a very effective split build for imperial isle... even with teleports on one of the warriors. And trying to outlast rawr's fortress build at VoD with Mo/W backline and just a rit for support? You better make sure you have a substantial NPC advantage...

No need repeating statements that no one is arguing about..

Kaon · May 27, 2008, 04:53 PM // 16:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

Its interesting to point out the guilds of yesterday and how they didnt seem to rely on builds to win their places as the best guilds in GW history. I guess my only response to that is the length of GvGs back then... 25 or 30 min VoD? Much more time for these teams to try out a variety of tactical moves and more time to continually pile on small amounts of DP on more static builds through unequal split situations. Those guilds like Last Pride, Te, WM, etc were characterised by some very flexible play, and GvGs back then were very different to the stand focused GvGs of today, which is something many of us have discussed in previous discussions about the state of split play vs stand play in GvG.

First off: Te was actually dreadful in playoffs (the exception being their regionals). During the GWFC seasons they weren't impressive at all, and neither was iQ for that matter.

But most importantly, build wars back then was much more possible than it is now. There were so many overpowered things around it wasn't even funny. The reason WM and EvIL always won was because NOONE EVER BUILDWARSED AGAINST THEM! Every match i'd observe i'd yell at their opponents and call them stupid and dumb for not buildwarsing. They were trying to outplay a guild that has specialized itself in outplaying the opponent, pure stupidity. It happened in only 3 matchups that people specced against the Koreans, and all three were succesful.

1. Being iB vs WM, iB played their recall stuff and were just extremely good.
2. Black Widow outbuilding EvIL with a byob and thumpers. This is a perfect example of how a disorganized guild with bad players stomped EvIL 2-0.
3. EW using Necrospike.

Buildwars has always been around, and has only gotten less effective over time, the only thing that differs over time is the attitude towards and how much guilds are bothered enough to test and do buildwars.

Kaon · May 27, 2008, 05:22 PM // 17:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

I don't think vZ even specifically specced rawr, the only thing I guess they changed about their build was the runner because they knew rawr wasn't going to split on them anyway.

Actually it was a full buildwars. We had been playing almost only balanced for half a year and the entire playoffs. It's just that against Battle Gods the conditionbuild would rock them so ran it (6minflawless). Against DF we knew we had the best chance with condition build and we were right. Against rawr the train of thought went like this:

A - Ok so we face rawr, we know their build and we know that our condition build RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing rapes them. Let's run it!
B - But we've run it for the past 2 matches, they might spec us!
A - Lolnoob, it's rawr they don't spec us. In any case we have powerlock+humility so rc doesnt even matter. Also we're going to run a mesmer runner because they're never going to split anyway.

100% buildwars. It's just that we buildwarsed our opponent 3 times in a row with the same build that it looks like a constant.

Double Pact · May 27, 2008, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

If StS are truly rawr's European counterpart

They run splitbuilds! (Can't be rawr, can it?)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

In some sense, VoD being moved to 18min was a huge indirect buff to 8vs8 defensive builds

Indirect? <-- Understatement of the year

Lorekeeper · May 27, 2008, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Double Pact

They run splitbuilds! (Can't be rawr, can it?)

Indirect? <-- Understatement of the year

stop trolling?

Double Pact · May 27, 2008, 07:21 PM // 19:21

Actually (objectively seen), they do run splitbuilds (like in the finale...) and that is very unlike rawr and making vod 18min was a huge buff for vod builds. Don't see the troll...

Lorekeeper · May 27, 2008, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Back to the discussion, I think I was mainly waiting for someone to pick up where Kaon left off. That is, the question, since vZ's attempt can you outbuild rawr?

Could it have been done on frozen isle last time? (I strongly believe so)

And could it have been done on imperial isle this time? (I am not so sure about this one)

EDIT: I guess this line of discussion belongs in another thread.

Kaon · May 27, 2008, 09:38 PM // 21:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

Back to the discussion, I think I was mainly waiting for someone to pick up where Kaon left off. That is, the question, since vZ's attempt can you outbuild rawr?

Could it have been done on frozen isle last time? (I strongly believe so)

And could it have been done on imperial isle this time? (I am not so sure about this one)

EDIT: I guess this line of discussion belongs in another thread.

I have a large amount of gimmicks up my sleeve that in theory are able to crush rawr.

In theory because i never get to test them since my guild plays rarely enough as it is and that doesn't leave time left to test some gimmick against some guild.

That being said here's a few concrete ideas:

- Make a vodbuild as well, only now better than rawrs because you know what they're going to do.
- Dedicated split, doesn't necessarily have to achieve anything untill the game reaches vod and then split. An example would be Sinfire or modifications of that build.
- dR style build (the one with e/d fire) only this time with shatterstone water. Hard on imperial so hope rawr RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOs up somehow.
- Eurospike.
- Paraway.
- Place outragious gimmick here. Like 6 mindblasters for instance!

la_cabra_de_vida · May 28, 2008, 10:24 PM // 22:24

Euro handled rawr last monthly pretty good with paraspike, dR has had success with dervspike too, (rawr cup final) Imo best way to beat rawr is outspike them faster if you wish to go 8v8.

Akaraxle · May 29, 2008, 09:01 AM // 09:01

What the hell, Mitch e-defending me? Guild Wars really is dead after all.

Kaida: I don't really know you, nor I want to know you, nor I care whether you know me or not. I'm not even known around the top sphere as much as people think because I sticked mostly to the same people and made the "mistake" of not sucking up to those I didn't really like. I've never used my experience to pin down others in a discussion, unless I was dealing with real idiots.
I don't understand why you and that Snow Bunny guy have to get so worked up over something I posted: I was being serious (silly posts like my first in this thread are on a different level) and I think I argumented properly. If you're trying to look cool by bashing on others, that's not the way to go.

As [rawr] showed this month for the umpteenth time, no matter how many defenses you take down, people STILL bring a set amount to win at VoD. The problem lies in the format, not in blockway.
Defense is good; defense allowing to win games when stacked is bad.

Snow Bunny · May 29, 2008, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Lol @ StS being the Euro equivalent of rawr.

Different playstyles, different players, pretty much completely different.

Akaraxle, it was some comment. I wasn't getting worked up over anything. I'm at work and thus not in the mood to search for your comment, but it was one dumb thing you said.

But more dumb is comparing StS to rawr. I'd love to see StS get gold, I've always liked Flaming and Godguard and their respective styles. Flaming in particular is a really quick and aware monk. With rawr's fortressway, 3lbs AoS's the shit out of Awowa, who in turn pre-emptively infuses Polly. Much different than what Flaming does.

IMMORTAlMITCH · May 29, 2008, 11:16 PM // 23:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Lol @ StS being the Euro equivalent of rawr.

Different playstyles, different players, pretty much completely different.

Different players sure, different playstyles? Hardly, though StS does sometimes experiment with splitting or *gasp* pressure builds, it generally still comes down to 3-2-1 spiking down enemy warriors and basedefending/flaggin with warriors till VoD.

Quote:

But more dumb is comparing StS to rawr. I'd love to see StS get gold, I've always liked Flaming and Godguard and their respective styles. Flaming in particular is a really quick and aware monk. With rawr's fortressway, 3lbs AoS's the shit out of Awowa, who in turn pre-emptively infuses Polly. Much different than what Flaming does.

The difference is that Flaming carries Mel, and this isn't nearly as much the case with Awowa and Pounds. Although I don't think between the 4 of them a lot of weapon swapping goes on, most of them seem to be content with sitting in shield set 24/7 until they run low on energy..

The main difference between the 2 guilds is that Rawr stays true to their roots, never really running anything but the good old fortressway adrenspike whereas StS tries to 'mask their true identity' by running builds that are at first glance not so much pure spike builds, however usually still get played that way, although admittedly, Firefox replacing Acid from what I can tell actually allowed them to pressure somewhat.

It's kind of sad to see Rawr play such builds all the time, because with Asp and Jatt on their roster they should be able to play more interesting builds..

Anyway, both guilds are good at what they do, which is adrenspiking and winning at VoD with (especially in Rawr's case) a heavy emphasis on the latter.

Guillaume De Sonoma · May 29, 2008, 11:25 PM // 23:25

Anyone feel like the final match should be a Bo3 instead of a Bo1?

Ec]-[oMaN · May 29, 2008, 11:29 PM // 23:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guillaume De Sonoma

Anyone feel like the final match should be a Bo3 instead of a Bo1?

Could be interesting but after watching the game this long I doubt people would even decide to switch builds up in a best of three lmao, pretty sad really.

Riotgear · May 30, 2008, 02:19 AM // 02:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guillaume De Sonoma

Anyone feel like the final match should be a Bo3 instead of a Bo1?

I wouldn't mind this.

Double Pact · May 30, 2008, 10:34 AM // 10:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Different players sure, different playstyles? Hardly, though StS does sometimes experiment with splitting or *gasp* pressure builds, it generally still comes down to 3-2-1 spiking down enemy warriors and basedefending/flaggin with warriors till VoD.

The main difference between the 2 guilds is that Rawr stays true to their roots, never really running anything but the good old fortressway adrenspike whereas StS tries to 'mask their true identity' by running builds that are at first glance not so much pure spike builds, however usually still get played that way

Every guild that spikes warriors and tries to win a game is rawr style??? Big LOL for that (btw if any euro guild represented rawr style, it would be BdV, not StS)

Rawr might "stay true to their roots" (although fortressway has nothing to do with good, at least not for me...) but you could also say that they'd simply fail so hard trying to split that fortressway is the only way they can be successful.

IMMORTAlMITCH · May 30, 2008, 11:06 AM // 11:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Double Pact

Every guild that spikes warriors and tries to win a game is rawr style??? Big LOL for that

You're an idiot.

Quote:

(btw if any euro guild represented rawr style, it would be BdV, not StS)

That would be true if it wasn't for the fact that BdV is terrible.

Quote:

Rawr might "stay true to their roots" (although fortressway has nothing to do with good, at least not for me...) but you could also say that they'd simply fail so hard trying to split that fortressway is the only way they can be successful.

That's a baseless assumption, maybe they would fail, maybe they wouldn't, if they never try then we'll never know, fact is however that StS has tried, and usually it didn't work out so well for them.

With the players and coordination Rawr has they should at least be able to play split oriented builds, pressure builds would be more problematic as with the way their frontline plays it'd be hard to pressure.

Double Pact · May 30, 2008, 05:46 PM // 17:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

You're an idiot.

QFT!!!!
Honestly, is that your point?

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

That's a baseless assumption, maybe they would fail, maybe they wouldn't, if they never try then we'll never know, fact is however that StS has tried, and usually it didn't work out so well for them.

Erm actually StS didn't fail playing splits/ranger balanced, but w/e
I never said that rawr would fail, the only thing I said was that one could say that (there's a difference)

IMMORTAlMITCH · May 30, 2008, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Double Pact

QFT!!!!
Honestly, is that your point?

My point is that if you don't see the similarities between Rawr's playstyle and StS' playstyle, you're either stupid, bad at the game or both.

Quote:

Erm actually StS didn't fail playing splits/ranger balanced, but w/e
I never said that rawr would fail, the only thing I said was that one could say that (there's a difference)

StS' ranger balanced plays exactly the same except sometimes they use it to stalemate a flagger so they will get to VoD without DP/NPC deaths easier.

They never really play(ed) split builds apart from the finals vs Rawr, and they failed there.

Double Pact · May 30, 2008, 08:31 PM // 20:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

My point is that if you don't see the similarities between Rawr's playstyle and StS' playstyle, you're either stupid, bad at the game or both.

Sure I see similarities, but not everyone who has similarities to rawr's playstyle plays gw the rawr-style (that would kinda make TEH STANDARD out of rawr, wouldn't it?)

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

StS' ranger balanced plays exactly the same except sometimes they use it to stalemate a flagger so they will get to VoD without DP/NPC deaths easier.

They never really play(ed) split builds apart from the finals vs Rawr, and they failed there.

I hope you're not serious by saying all a StS ranger does is crip the enemy flagger...
They might not play dedicated splits, but splitting in balanced counts as well imo